Bill Gates and Rashida Jones Ask Big Questions, Schemes and Mind Maps of Voice

Download Bill Gates and Rashida Jones Ask Big Questions and more Schemes and Mind Maps Voice in PDF only on Docsity! Bill Gates and Rashida Jones Ask Big Questions EPISODE 05: Can people really change? Date aired: December 14, 2020 RASHIDA JONES: Today’s episode contains some salty language, courtesy of Bono, which is fine for me, but may not be suitable for all listeners. RASHIDA JONES: Hi, I'm Rashida Jones. BILL GATES: Hi, I'm Bill Gates. RASHIDA JONES: And we're here to ask the big questions. [singing] RASHIDA JONES: Today the big question is: can people really change? Can Trump supporters learn to accept and maybe even respect President Joe Biden? Will this pandemic ever unify us, as opposed to dividing us? Talking about personal change and making change in the world and how those two things are connected. In terms of the work that you do and how you've tried to precipitate change, do you feel like there were things when you were young that were extremely important to you and that you prioritized that have changed? BILL GATES: Yes, I'd say that I'm more interested in other people. I was quite self-centered when I was young. Am I talented? What can I do with my talent? RASHIDA JONES: I think we all do that. BILL GATES: You know, computers. But I was an extreme case. RASHIDA JONES: Okay. I believe you. BILL GATES: Can I write the best software? What can we do with personal computing? I definitely think age, for me, has made me think about other people way more than I was able to when I was young. RASHIDA JONES: Okay, so what would 18-year-old Bill see about Bill today that would surprise him? BILL GATES: I'd say, this guy is lazy. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BILL GATES: He takes a lot of vacations. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BILL GATES: He's not as sharp as he used to be. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] That’s so sad that you think your young self would look at this guy, and be like, "What is he doing? Get to work, buddy!" BILL GATES: Yes, just goofing off. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BILL GATES: When I was 18, I didn't have high expectations for what I would do in my 60s. I didn't think of people in their 60s as being relevant to the fast-moving, high-IQ game that I was in. There weren't older people because it was kind of a new field. I wouldn't expect myself to still be at the cutting edge at all. I was pretty tough on how lazy most people were. RASHIDA JONES: And now you're one of those people. BILL GATES: You bet. RASHIDA JONES: Congratulations. BILL GATES: I'm headed off. I'm going to take the weekend off. RASHIDA JONES: Whoa! BILL GATES: [laughs] How do you think you've changed over time? happen to be interested in that. I do feel like that's one positive thing about social media and the internet, is that I have more access to that information because it's flowing through my group of friends and the people who do care about that kind of thing. So that's kind of a good thing. But I also think that maybe the pandemic has exacerbated this feeling because there is not as much travel. I find it very expansive to travel. I know I don't represent everybody, but we don't have that access right now. It does feel like everybody's sort of hunkering down and doubling down on their own feelings about what's right and what's worth fighting for. BILL GATES: It will be good to get out again. Even though there may be less trips, those trips will be important to connect. RASHIDA JONES: Mm-hmm. [affirmative] Right. BILL GATES: I hope, post the pandemic, that kind of outreach is broad. After the World War, the world came together and created the United Nations and I think we'll see some of that now. We need some people speaking up for the benefits of cooperation. RASHIDA JONES: Do you think that where we are now, are we so damaged that it's going to be so hard to fix? Do you think we need to go further in the extreme direction before we fix it? BILL GATES: No. No, in fact I'm not a radical, a revolutionary, and I worry that people see radical solutions as the only way to move forward, whereas I see more centrist ways of being able to tackle problems. Not overnight, but I don't think the radical approach works overnight as well. The extreme views, that's a bit scary. RASHIDA JONES: I wonder what it's going to be that unifies us. If it’s not going to be a pandemic, and it's not going to be politics, what is it actually going to be? I believe that art can be a great unifier. I believe that humor can be a great unifier. Music can be a great unifier. Our guest today is not only a world-famous musician, but he’s also worked tirelessly to use his voice and influence to impact real change in the world. I want to welcome to the show the man that Bill most wants to hug when COVID is over: Bono. Welcome, Bono. BONO (GUEST): Hello there, Rashida. Hello there, Bill. I got the message that Bill wanted to mug me, not hug me. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BILL GATES: [laughs] BONO (GUEST): It’s usually the other way around, so I'm very relieved and moved, actually. That shouldn't be shocking. That's the Bill Gates I know. RASHIDA JONES: He may still mug you while he's hugging you. BONO (GUEST): [laughs] RASHIDA JONES: That's his trick, I've heard. BILL GATES: [laughs] BONO (GUEST): No, it's usually the other way around. People are constantly bothering this man for access to his wallet when, in fact, it's his brain is where the real resources lie. That's what I'd say. RASHIDA JONES: Tha’ts nice. How did you two first meet? I want to know the meet cute story. BONO (GUEST): There was a meeting in New York pre-Davos. There was some hamburgers involved. This is long before Impossible Burger and good-for-you burgers. It was definitely a bad-for-you burger situation and I thought, "I'm going to get along with this man very well." RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BONO (GUEST): Then the next night we had a meeting of activists. There was a bunch of us at the back of a restaurant. There was a knock on the door and eventually I went, opened it, and there was a rapper standing there and I recognized him to be Puffy, but Bill had no idea who this man was. When he came in and came straight up and just went, "Bill Gates, you are a mother fucker." RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BONO (GUEST): Bill just was looking at me, like, "What's going on?" RASHIDA JONES: "Is that good?" [laughs] BONO (GUEST): He said, "What you're doing on malaria is off the charts!” and we had a kind of great evening. BILL GATES: [laughs] RASHIDA JONES: That's a very good story. We have also, full disclosure, we've known each other a very long time because our families know each other, and you're very close with my dad, who loves you, kind of, not more than me, but more than a lot of people in the world. BILL GATES: [laughs] BONO (GUEST): Can I say, Rashida, that I remember the first time I met you, and you probably don't know this, but you are one of the reasons that Ali and myself have kids. I guess you would have been maybe 11, 12, 13. I can't recall exactly. I was around in your house with Ali, and we watched you with your father and it was just a very, very affectionate occasion. You were playing with him, sort of slapping him on the face, and he's pushing you away. It was kind of like you’re a nuisance and he goes, "Who’s the nuisance?" I walked with Ali afterwards, and I said, "You know, maybe it is possible to have kids and be a musician, where you give yourself to your music." I mean, it was a real conversation about it because I wasn't sure I could be a good parent. A month or so later Ali was pregnant. RASHIDA JONES: That is so nice and that actually is very relevant to our conversation today because we were talking about personal change and also world change, and are those things possible? And how much do you change, and how much can you change other people? Hearing you talk about how you probably had a fixed idea of what your life would be like because you're a musician, and then you have this moment, and it kind of changes your idea of whether or not you can be a father, you think you know you who are, and then the world kind of tells you differently. I want to know from you, Bono, you grew up in Ireland at a very difficult time, and you just seem like somebody who is inherently an activist. I'm not sure which came first for you, the artistry or the activism. How does how you came up, inform the kind of activist that you are? BONO (GUEST): I'm sure the desire to be in a band was just megalomania starting at a very early age. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BONO (GUEST): You just want to be heard because probably you're being ignored at home. There’s two ways you become an artist. One is by being told by your family that you're incredible and you've got something and you've got a lot of say. And the other is just being completely ignored and I'm the latter there and I've more than made up for it. the general public. How much do you think talking about it is going to help inform them? Do you know what I mean? BONO (GUEST): Certainly our politics is a product of storytelling. Poor storytelling brings about poor politics and I consider myself to be a top line melody person. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BONO (GUEST): It might surprise you that I don't just look for that top line melody in music. I'm looking for it in ideas, in the world of ideas. I'm looking for it in politics and activism, all over the place. RASHIDA JONES: Mm-hmm. [affirmative] BONO (GUEST): But Bill is also. You don't think of him as a singer, but he's also looking for that clear thought. RASHIDA JONES: Mm-hmm. [affirmative] BONO (GUEST): In fact, he's very singular in his focus of trying to find that thing. What's that thing that will get us through this? That we have in common. Actually the storytelling, to answer your question, Rashida, the storytelling's become really important in the last years because in a time of fables, we need truth tellers. RASHIDA JONES: Mm-hmm. [affirmative] BONO (GUEST): Whereas, Rashida, you and I, we look for as an actor or as a performer, Bill's not a performer. I'm a performer. I'm looking for emotional integrity of a thought. But a truth teller, it has to be intellectual honesty. RASHIDA JONES: Mm-hmm. [affirmative] BONO (GUEST): For this period our best story tellers are truth tellers. You don't think of Tony Fauci, who you've had on this podcast, as a singer. He's fucking Frank Sinatra to me. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] RASHIDA JONES: Just clear cutting right to it, right? BONO (GUEST): It’s just that’s what we need in our story telling. RASHIDA JONES: Right. BILL GATES: I hope that we're always smart enough to remind people that we belong to the human race. That's the nation that we should think of ourselves being part of. Bono and I went to a dinner one night in London where one of our colleagues said to us, "You know, this thing you do about saving children's lives, that's really not an interesting idea right now, that's sort of passé." I remember I got fairly angry at the dinner, saying, "How can you say that?" I mean, the person was actually trying to help us and it was kind of true that our… RASHIDA JONES: The messaging. BILL GATES: …melody or whatever was not resonating. RASHIDA JONES: Right, right. BILL GATES: He said it like, "Oh, you have to find another cause." RASHIDA JONES: No one cares about children anymore. BILL GATES: No dammit, we need another melody not another cause. Do you remember that, Bono? BONO (GUEST): I remember it well. BILL GATES: [laughs] BONO (GUEST): I'm really giad that for all of the sights you've seen on the ground, in the field, that you've not lost your sense of annoyance and indeed, that's the wrong word, rage. I would call it rage. RASHIDA JONES: Yes. BONO (GUEST): The thing about if I can say this, and I am going to say it, which is people talk about Bill's capability, but I would rather talk about his character. The reason that I'm friends, as opposed to just comrades with Bill is because of the values. I think it's good that you're annoyed, Bill. That's my point. I'm the punk rocker going, "I think I know what he meant," and Bill's going, "I don't want to know what he meant." RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] I actually have a personal question because it applies to me too. I have a much smaller fan base and maybe a much smaller circle of influence, but I do find that I get criticized sometimes for being too political or talking about things that people don't want me to talk about. They want me to shut up and act or shut up and do whatever. Bono, do you ever feel like people reach a point of fatigue when it comes to artists talking about social justice issues? Do you ever feel like it's time to shut up? I feel like that sometimes. BONO (GUEST): Most of my family would concur. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BONO (GUEST): The band would concur. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BILL GATES: [laughs] RASHIDA JONES: This is an intervention. They actually called me, to call "Please stop talking." BONO (GUEST): Yes is the answer. I would quite like to actually reduce my profile in this kind of way but what else use is this currency of what we've been given, this fame. I hate the word celebrity. I would say celebrity upends God's order of things and mothers and nurses. These are the really important things. You might think singers love the sound of their own voice, why else would they be out there? Actually, people will step onto a stage to try and find their voice. It's the strangest thing. You’re actually trying to find out who you are. Art is an attempt to identify yourself and hopefully, when that job is done, you can fuck off. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] BILL GATES: The eloquence to draw people in and not have it repel them because you're telling them bad news and it's about people who are far away. The eloquence to draw people in, Bono is so gifted. When he sat down with Senator Helms, when he went over to Tony Fauci's house and said, "Now's the time, we've got to get this done," It made a huge difference. The work that Bono drove through ONE in his personal voice, even saying things like, "Hey, the U.S. is an idea of equality" and that he admires that, that's gotten a lot of people to step back and say, "Okay, this is important." I'd say celebrity activism, I'd use Bono's work as exhibit A to say that it really can make a difference. Now we have a U.S. administration that will care, and we have a crisis we have got to finish off, so, no slacking off… KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): [laughs] Yes, exactly. Big side effects. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): I do think I am really passionate about being able to impact change where I can, when I can, but I know that I'm not a full-time change maker. RASHIDA JONES: Do you think that when it comes to impacting people and effecting change, because this is a question I ask myself too, we talked to Bono about this particularly. Do you feel the fatigue that people feel hearing from you on matters that are not art related? I certainly do and what do you do to battle that? KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): I think a big part of why I don't often feel that fatigue is that I've always done this work. For some reason, I've been really vocal about issues that determine or that involve humanity from the very beginning of my career. I don't often get a lot of pushback about it because it really is a part of how I walk in the world. I think that's really important when we start thinking about artists having more of a voice because I think sometimes what happens is, we pop up in these election years, and every four years we come around and want to have a voice and an impact, and if we're not living in that space, not to the same degree, because we don't have to be in serious get-out-the-vote mode. If we're not acknowledging the struggles of humanity and a little bit focused on change and doing good in the world in the off years, and on the off seasons, then I think people bristle at it because it feels out of context. RASHIDA JONES: Yes, inauthentic. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): When we say to a celebrity "You should not be political," we're actually living in opposition to the reality that we all need to be political. We shouldn't tell anybody to not be engaged. Democracy requires us all. It's not a spectator sport. RASHIDA JONES: Where does that come from for you? Is that from your parents? Why is that so built into the fabric of who you are? KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): I think so. I think my parents are both pretty engaged in the community in different ways. My dad is more of the work from within the system guy. He's on so many different boards, community boards, healthcare boards. I come from New York City, so this healthcare board in the Bronx and that community service board in Brooklyn. He does a lot of that kind of work. My mother was much more of an activist growing up. She crossed the line. When the teacher’s union was picketing, she crossed the picket line because she thought that a lot of what the union was standing for was racist and sexist, and so she's always been more of an activist. RASHIDA JONES: It’s tough to cross that line with a union. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): When I was a kid, my public school was downstairs from the superintendent's office and the superintendent used to always say to me in the hallway, "Did your mommy drop you at school today?" I thought it was because he really liked my mom, but it's because he was terrified of her and he knew that if she was around, he was going to have to answer to some of her questions. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] "She didn't? Great, I feel much better. Enjoy your day sweetheart." KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): [laughs] Exactly, exactly. RASHIDA JONES: We were talking about what it means to construct a narrative and storytelling. Bono was saying he's a top melody writer, that's what he does. He kind of comes in, he distills what the issue is and tries to communicate it to the rest of the world. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): Mm-hmm. [affirmative] RASHIDA JONES: Kerry, do you see your work the way that Bono does, which is essentially just trying to help communicate key issues? KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): I really try to think about this work strategically because I do think sometimes as artists, we get told to just have feelings about things particularly as actors. “"Just sing a song about it," or "Just make a movie about it," and I think there's incredible power in that, in impacting culture through narrative. But I also think, as activists, because we're storytellers, we can hear their larger issues and translate it into words that other people can hear, particularly at somebody like you as a writer. My job as an actor, your job as an actor, we walk in other people's shoes, so, I think I'm often able to hear something and say, "How would that person hear that best?" Or "How would that community understand that issue?" Or, "What does this group of women need to hear in order to activate around that issue?" BILL GATES: How integrated do you think your career and your activism are? Would you seek out certain roles because that would reinforce the values you bring to your activism? KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): It’s funny. It more came up for me early in my career. I started realizing that I was saying no to projects at a time when I could not afford to say no to anything. I remember saying I'd rather work three more shifts at this restaurant than take on a movie that I think is going to be bad for women or reinforce stereotypes about black people. Occasionally, I'm drawn to something because I feel, "Oh, this is a message that needs to be out in the world." More often, the weird reality is that for me, because I'm a woman and because I'm a black person, any time that I've put myself at the center of a story or found myself at the center of a story, it's somewhat of a political act. RASHIDA JONES: Right. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): My job has just been to three-dimensionalize that person and make her fully human. Which is my job as an actor anyway. But in this body it’s really important because for Olivia Pope, for example, so many people said to me, "She was the black woman that I have been closest to in my life. I've never had a black woman in my house every single week at the same time and had that kind of intimacy the way I did with Olivia Pope." RASHIDA JONES: For white people and black people, right? KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): Yes. Yes. Totally. RASHIDA JONES: There is something that's inherently political about playing that role and reaching so many people, because it does just sort of fill out the spectrum of what you understand a black woman to be. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): Yes, and not interpreting that to mean, "I have to be perfect," but one of the things I loved about her was she was so aspirational, but she was massively flawed. RASHIDA JONES: Yes. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): Sleeping with somebody else's husband, all that stuff. RASHIDA JONES: The president, but whatever. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): Whatever. [laughing] RASHIDA JONES: [Laughing] Yes, not just somebody else's husband. Okay. [Laughing] Relatable. Relatable. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): [Laughing] There is that. RASHIDA JONES: That's good, because I do think that sometimes we lose sight of that, but sometimes it is just helping to increase morale and create community. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): Mm-hmm. [affirmative] RASHIDA JONES: And people are tired. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): That's right. RASHIDA JONES: You know? KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): That's right. And that's fun to remember also, because sometimes in these moments where you think, "How can I help the legal battles?" RASHIDA JONES: Right. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): "How can I be registering voters?" All of these things that are not exactly what I'm best at. RASHIDA JONES: [Laughing] KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): It’s great for me to jump in and lend a hand and increase visibility, but also, what stories can I tell? How can I bring joy? How can I bring inspiration to a moment? RASHIDA JONES: Cheerlead. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): Yes. That’s actually what I do. RASHIDA JONES: Yes. Yes. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): It's good to remember. [Laughing] RASHIDA JONES: Kerry, it's such a pleasure to know you and to talk to you today, and thank you so much for joining us. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): I'm delighted to spend time with you both, as I'm a super fan of you both. BILL GATES: Thanks. RASHIDA JONES: Thank you. KERRY WASHINGTON (GUEST): Bye. RASHIDA JONES: Bye. [music] BILL GATES: That was super. RASHIDA JONES: Yes. BILL GATES: It's nice that, for them, when they measure their success, they think of not just how great they perform their art, but have they brought their values to play. That’s part of who they are and they’d feel strange to have commercial success without it connecting to their values. I hope we'll see more of that. Young people are yearning for guidance on how to do more than just have financial success. RASHIDA JONES: Right. BILL GATES: I think artists can connect this next generation with causes that will both be fulfilling and accelerate progress. RASHIDA JONES: Right. BILL GATES: My optimism is showing here again. RASHIDA JONES: [Laughing] Bono talked about how you had this kind of singular vision and that's kind of what's great about you and your work. What do you think is the more important trait, to be open to change or to have a sense of this kind of thread of conviction through the course of your life? BILL GATES: Movements need quite a mix of characters. I could not have sat down with Senator Helms and convinced him not to block the money for HIV in the way that Bono did by quoting from the Bible and creating a sense of common humanity. RASHIDA JONES: Mm-hmm. [affirmative] BILL GATES: That's actually pretty phenomenal that Bono has that skill. All movements need different folks and hopefully those folks do like working as a team and find that common cause. That’s why it's been fun to have Bono who comes at this from a different angle than I do and yet we’ve resonated with each other. RASHIDA JONES: In general, would you say you've changed more than you haven't over the course of your life? BILL GATES: I think there's limits to how much people can change. You can mellow. You can learn other people's points of view. You can give your kids a chance to be more enlightened than you are. RASHIDA JONES: Right. You can see the change generationally. That feels like the big one. BILL GATES: A lot of the big change sadly requires generations to go by before you don't think of the Japanese as this enemy that we fought and you see them as deeply peace loving. RASHIDA JONES: With that, I think the big answer there is that change requires you to really see other people and see the big picture of something. It's impossible to envision change when you're just sitting in your own life and just seeing what you're seeing day-to day. You have to think big. You have to think globally. You have to think generationally. Change requires so much energy and time to really stick. We have to be patient and thoughtful, and evolved, and empathetic. That's all I have to say. BILL GATES: All right. RASHIDA JONES: [laughs] [music] RASHIDA JONES: Over this season our series has explored questions that are fundamentally about change. Can and should we stop lying? Can society become more equal? Will things be different after COVID-19? Can we make the changes needed to stop a climate disaster? It seems to me that your optimism, Bill, is rooted in change and the belief that things will get better because people choose to make them better and have the tools to make them better. I want to ask you one last time, why should I be an optimist? Why should I believe that the world is changing for the better?